General Discussion and Updates

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:03 pm


The first thing that has to happen is take the emotional dialogue out of this debate. You cannot craft sensible legislation with both sides distorting the purpose of the Second Amendment and the constitutional remedies that are indeed in place.

The Right believes that society has no right to legislate guns. This is plainly not true. The Tenth Amendment clearly gives legislative power to We the People and unless we leave the core of the Second Amendment in place, we can regulate the details as is done with the First Amendment and Imminent Lawless Action for example.

So the market found a way around 'semi' automatic weapons which are not automatic and which only bear the cosmetic features of a fully automatic weapon. The automation is disabled on 'semi' automatic weapons and thus they created a separate attachment that can make the 'semi automatic' weapon more automatic which apparently is not illegal.
This is of course a loophole.

Close the loopholes. The unfortunate thing is that the lobbyists craft the laws in this country. This should have been remedied with a constitutional amendment like Move to Amend , the organization that is trying to get money out of politics and amend the Constitution to define person hood!

The Left needs to stop falling for the propaganda! 0.1% of gun deaths in this country is NOT an epidemic. The word epidemic does not match the meaning in this case. Is 0.1% too much. OF COURSE every single life taken by a gun is too much as is any life taken by any other weapons etc. This does not warrant the elimination of the Second Amendment. You cannot legislate to the extend in preventing tragedy all the time.

We can address the glamorizing of the Second Amendment and basically educate people its real existence and not through Rambo movies.

Gun control has an inherently RACIST history in THIS country as well.

I think clearing up misconceptions on both sides can help with addressing the real problems we have with guns today.




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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Jae on Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:52 pm

This conversation is ridiculous and laughable. The hypocrisy, the lack of comprehension, the tension and the moral and intellectual superiority is sickening to me. History does indeed repeat itself and I have no desire to be a part of this conversation any longer if this is the path it will take. I have enough shit going on in my life.

I'm sure the assumption will be that I have been beaten, proved wrong, rendered speechless and responseless by glowering intellect and infallible logic. Please let it be known that it is nothing more than being sick of this shit.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:21 pm

Here is the movement that arose from the Supreme Court Ruling called Citizens United.

It is at the core of our Oligarchy!

Corporations and Banks ( and the MIC) running the show.

When you wonder why we can't get legit legislation passed it is that lobbyist lawyers are the ones crafting it and the lawyers of the NRA are running the show.

This movement is working on getting a Convention of States and a Constitutional amendment to define what person hood is! If this gets passed, money won't be free speech anymore and lobbyists are done in DC.

https://www.movetoamend.org/

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:26 pm

"The hypocrisy, the lack of comprehension, the tension and the moral and intellectual superiority is sickening to me'

Wasn't it you Jae that wanted to 'fuck' with me by 'burning the Constitution' which really was your position all along? I think this was an excuse to cover up the rampant ignorance towards the topic instead! Talk about hypocrisy!

Or is it your lack of comprehension was exposed after your mocking post that I was regurgitating positions on this issue about the Second Amendment? ( which James had asked me to respond to btw)


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:34 pm

On happy notes, I got to have lunch with Laura, her husband and her beautiful Zoe. Truly blessed.

NOT delving into this crap because I need calm. Not superiority complexes, ad homes attacks and circular thinking. I do not like debate, as I've said before and the above attacks reinforce that decision. If I wanted government classes I'd enroll back into college.

Goodnight and Laura, it was a great pleasure to spend time with you.
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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:45 pm

That is fine Dee. Nobody is twisting your arm. Definitely not me.

The sole reason I am posting here is because James has repeatedly asked me to post here because the conversation had gotten stale. Not too many view points.

And you are right. People don't want to bother which is exactly what is giving them the Government they don't want. Talk about circular thinking!

We have reduced democracy to the voting of the 'lesser of two evils' at our own request because we are too lazy to go to the length it takes to get it right, fair and just!

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:50 am

I did NOT say that people didn't want to bother.

I MEANT that I didn't like your constant factual "instruction" and not listening to what others have to say not to mention talking down to everyone. We all are educated people. We all have different life experiences. Just because mine are different than yours doesn't mean I'm confused. It means I have different experiences and beliefs. Simple as that. And is my Constitutional right to express without infringement by the government.

I was tired from the long ride to see Laura today (which was wonderful!) and a lack of sleep the night before plus a lot of exertion yesterday when I went and did the shopping alone for the first time in a long time. My boyfriend usually does it because it is so hard on me.

I needed peace. I didn't need post after post of, what often is, circular thinking. The topic was gun control IN THE USA. Not in Europe. Not anywhere else but here, where white males have become the leader in kill shots, murder and mayhem using firearms. Legally obtained due to loopholes in state and federal laws.

"Report in Europe" excuse me, reports from whom? Have your personally experienced it? Have you ever personally .. and I mean YOU PERSONALLY.. experienced gun violence. I have. I saw a man die by blowing his head off. It was sickening and has stayed with me almost 40 years now. I will never forget the smells, sounds and metallic taste in my mouth. I'll never forget my parents screams. I'll never forget the "wall of blue" that made a tunnel for my mother, brother and I to leave the house so we didn't see the horrendous mess in the light of examination and investigation.

It happened with my father's own off duty service revolver that he had put SAFELY up out of reach of children. Sadly a drunk "uncle" (close friend of my parents whose children we'd often play with) showed up and was depressed. He made a split second decision that rippled into so many lives. He left a wife and 3 children. Safely out of reach is not safely put away. Dad almost lost his badge over that. He was a training sergeant for the local force where I grew up and even taught at the NJ Police Academy in Sea Girt, NJ. So very well trained and experienced prior to this as well as obtaining more training afterward.

I was raised with gun safety. I was raised knowing how powerful gun ownership was. How dangerous it can be and how horribly wrong it can go in just an instant with no one having any controls on the outcome.

I'm a strong advocate on gun safety and minimalist gun ownership. Putting those controls and restrictions should be a priority in our country. Guns should be stored in locked cabinets with trigger locks. SEPARATE from ammunition. After the suicide, my father built a strong safe out of oak that had two individual locking chambers. He never again put his revolver, or any gun paraphernalia, where we could see or reach it. I will forever have a PTSD shock reaction to being around guns. I'm not afraid of police but I will flash when one comes near me because I know what that gun on their hip can do. I love venison but will never hunt because I can't desensitize myself enough to be safe with a weapon. Nor could I bring myself to kill. Bugs are one thing. Hunting is another.

I relate this as a personal experience. Not for pity. Not for shock. But as a personal and intense interaction with legal gun ownership.  It is common sense IMO. I don't misunderstand the Constitution. I believe it is a living document that should have evolved with the growth of our nation. The amendments have not done that, as they were intended. Special interests get in the way. The NRA has a huge sway in lawmaking, or the lack thereof. Our lawmakers have failed us. The Supreme Court is only as effective as the cases that it accepts to hear. Not every case presented is heard by them. It has to have merit toward constitutional law in order for them to consider it. But they're not the only branch that can shape our laws. And the other branch are too busy getting rich and taking honeymoons on the wallet of our country.

IN MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE People who own guns should have to recertify at least once a year on their use. On each gun. And their proficiency should be related to their access to weapons, insistence on more training, or further ownership. Police officers have to recertify every 6 months, or did. Their employment is hinged on their requalification at Sharpshooter and/or Marksman. If they fall below they must undergo training and practice until they can requalify. Until then, they "ride a desk".

JUST LIKE our Freedom of Speech (no I don't need a lecture on it, so save your fingers from typing) the RIGHT to own firearms comes with penalties and responsibilities. I'm not talking about the constitution other than the document failed to grow as our country did.

It's been decided that everyone, outside of those mentally ill that are deemed so by a judge (and there's no collective data base that holds that information), or felons, can own one. A person who'd been deemed mentally ill by a judge in Ohio can travel to PA or any other state and still purchase a firearm legally. So they're not thwarted. I get it. The people with bad intentions will still get guns. That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be more restrictions on legal gun owners. It is IMPERATIVE that they be proficient in the chance that they are involved in an active shooter incident and are able to make a difference and possibly end the situation before deaths happen.

So go ahead and own one, two, ten or a hundred. Be proficient in it's use and prove you're proficient. Learn the muscle memory reactions that should be in each and every gun owners ability.

I don't care how feasible it is. Every person who drives a car has to recertify at certain times in their lives that they can proficiently navigate the 2 ton hunk of metal - they should also be required to do the same for gun ownership. I'm sure it was overwhelming years ago when cars first hit the dirt roads of our emerging nation and Government realized they needed to make sure users were certified in the usage of cars. So they required proficiency and registration. It is no different with guns, although it is handled by each state differently, it needs to be more uniform.

No one wants to take their LEGALLY OWNED guns from them. But we'd really like to get rid of bump stocks and other devices that make a single shot, multiple load or semi-automatic into a rapid fire gun.

And the way you spoke to Jae and dismissed her personal experiences is not only wrong but very mean.

I didn't want to put my voice into this because I don't like confrontation and you are a very confrontational person. You become offended or defensive or just plain overbearing. I know how our government works. I know how flawed it is. But I also have personal experience that overshadows your pristine narrations.

Do you agree that people should be proficient in the use of the firearms that they own?

Do you agree that said firearms should be safely and properly stored when not in use?

Do you agree that ownership of "bump stocks" like was used in the LV shooting should be impossible to get since they hold no sporting nor hunting usage?

And I'm not too lazy. (Why do you have to call names and insult?) I vote in every election. EVERY ONE. I research the candidates and vote for the ones that most fit where I want our city/state/nation to go. That represent not only me but those around me with actively working to make our lives better rather than filling their pockets with special interest money and prestige. I go to events for peace in our city since we have had a lot of gun violence here where gangs from Detroit and Chicago meet up and cause mayhem and death in our usually quiet and friendly areal.

So please. Stay fully on topic, restrained to what is happening here in the USA. The other countries have other cultures. The AMERICAN CULTURE is one of guns. And I'm sick and tired of seeing so many senseless deaths. To put humanity into it I have to ask... Aren't you?


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:50 am

By the way, we're ALL here by invitation from James....
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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:07 pm

"I did NOT say that people didn't want to bother.
I MEANT that I didn't like your constant factual "instruction" and not listening to what others have to say not to mention talking down to everyone. We all are educated people. We all have different life experiences. Just because mine are different than yours doesn't mean I'm confused. It means I have different experiences and beliefs. Simple as that. And is my Constitutional right to express without infringement by the government"

And there lays the problem. It was not me 'fucking' with anybody ( Jae's expression) on purpose like this group apparently did with me. I was merely addressing emotional political conclusions with an analytical response based on our existing legal and legislative system.


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:09 pm

"The topic was gun control IN THE USA. Not in Europe'

I did not talk about gun control in Europe. The problems with extremism in Europe was merely a separate topic I brought up. Sorry for the confusion!


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:11 pm

"Not anywhere else but here, where white males have become the leader in kill shots, murder and mayhem using firearms. Legally obtained due to loopholes in state and federal laws"

Chicago unfortunately has 50 people dead weekly due to guns and they are predominantly black on black crime.

I object to the insertion of race at every whim as racism is learned behavior and we cannot speak for all white people or black people etc.
The concept of race originated from Government and has been used to keep people divided and conquered at every corner and prevents from logical and rational debate!

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:14 pm

""Report in Europe" excuse me, reports from whom? Have your personally experienced it? Have you ever personally .."

Excuse me? I am from Europe. Have family and friends in Italy and Holland. Have friends in Germany, Sweden, Norway, France, etc!
What has this comment to do with anything I wrote?

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:16 pm

"and I mean YOU PERSONALLY.. experienced gun violence. I have. I saw a man die by blowing his head off. It was sickening and has stayed with me almost 40 years now. I will never forget the smells, sounds and metallic taste in my mouth. I'll never forget my parents screams. I'll never forget the "wall of blue" that made a tunnel for my mother, brother and I to leave the house so we didn't see the horrendous mess in the light of examination and investigation.

It happened with my father's own off duty service revolver that he had put SAFELY up out of reach of children. Sadly a drunk "uncle" (close friend of my parents whose children we'd often play with) showed up and was depressed. He made a split second decision that rippled into so many lives. He left a wife and 3 children. Safely out of reach is not safely put away. Dad almost lost his badge over that. He was a training sergeant for the local force where I grew up and even taught at the NJ Police Academy in Sea Girt, NJ. So very well trained and experienced prior to this as well as obtaining more training afterward."

So tell me? What the did I say that you feel the need to address this to me?

Didn't I say we need gun control and didn't I say the Right is out to lunch if they think we cannot legislate guns?

So again, tell me why you give me this response?


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:20 pm

"I don't misunderstand the Constitution. I believe it is a living document that should have evolved with the growth of our nation. The amendments have not done that, as they were intended'

I never said you did.  The US Constitution IS a living document and it has build in measures to prove it is. But I did say Jae did and she does. Is it condescending when I say the Supreme Court indeed ruled in favor of Gay Marriage ( due to the people that fought tirelessly to bring it in front of the Supreme Court ) and that the Supreme Court cannot solicit cases around the country that are indeed unconstitutional when my factual observations are being met with emotional driven inaccuracies? Because this is at the heart of peoples thinking. They don't understand the process and so they mistakenly blame the Constitution when it is mass ignorance hand in hand with self serving Govt that is violating the very principles that are to guide us.

I agree with everything you said about gun safety which should not come as a surprise to you if you actually read my posts carefully enough.


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:27 pm

"JUST LIKE our Freedom of Speech (no I don't need a lecture on it, so save your fingers from typing) the RIGHT to own firearms comes with penalties and responsibilities. I'm not talking about the constitution other than the document failed to grow as our country did."

You got it backwards! The People failed to implement their Constitution!! The Constitution provides for remedies but unless the people implement those remedies, nothing will change!

( and how is me pointing out you got it backwards more condescending than you telling me you don't need a lecture?)


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:34 pm

"And the way you spoke to Jae and dismissed her personal experiences is not only wrong but very mean"

Really? After she posted a mocking reply to my post which was not at all directed at her personally?
Shall I pick apart that post and post all the her mocking ?

No Dee, you obviously also pick and choose what you want to hear and you didn't hear that I was INDEED for gun control and bashed the Right for claiming we cannot legislate guns! You went out of your way to lecture me on gun control when 1) I had already said I am FOR gun control and 2) after you mocked my post that you were not in the mood to address this issue but apparently you stayed up all night to reply here with answers that did not contradict what I said. Not on gun control OR the Supreme Courts PROPER ROLE in our Constitutional scheme!



I object to the emotional response to my post because people refuse to examine the factual process that is to guide us. It seems all of politics is driven by emotion rather than rationale and logic!


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:38 pm

"I don't care how feasible it is. Every person who drives a car has to recertify at certain times in their lives that they can proficiently navigate the 2 ton hunk of metal - they should also be required to do the same for gun ownership. I'm sure it was overwhelming years ago when cars first hit the dirt roads of our emerging nation and Government realized they needed to make sure users were certified in the usage of cars. So they required proficiency and registration. It is no different with guns, although it is handled by each state differently, it needs to be more uniform"

There is NO fundamental difference between Travel and the Right to Bear Arms! BOTH are constitutionally protected rights!

As I mentioned before, people die because individuals get in their car DRUNK and are totally aware they can kill someone because of their impaired state while drunk driving!

How is this any different from owning a gun and misusing it?

Drunk driving is almost triple the deaths of gun violence! So why not treat both equally as I suggested to begin with? Instead it was being met with mocking by Jae!


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:42 pm

"I didn't want to put my voice into this because I don't like confrontation and you are a very confrontational person. You become offended or defensive or just plain overbearing. I know how our government works. I know how flawed it is. But I also have personal experience that overshadows your pristine narrations'

Again, it was me posting analytical replies which triggered this crowd to 'trick and fuck with me"
Take responsibility for your own childishness and the fact my analytical replies put some of the emotional responses to factual existing systems like our legal and legislative bodies to shame! Stop hiding behind emotion and ignorance. Call me confrontational but it was not me 'tricking and fucking' with peoples posts!

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:44 pm

"Do you agree that people should be proficient in the use of the firearms that they own?

Do you agree that said firearms should be safely and properly stored when not in use?

Do you agree that ownership of "bump stocks" like was used in the LV shooting should be impossible to get since they hold no sporting nor hunting usage?"

I already addressed these questions above before I even replied to your last post here but apparently you did not see it.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:45 pm

"And I'm not too lazy. (Why do you have to call names and insult?)'

Did you see your own reply as to what I may ask?
Let me insert it here!






by Dee S Yesterday at 5:34 pm
On happy notes, I got to have lunch with Laura, her husband and her beautiful Zoe. Truly blessed.

NOT delving into this crap because I need calm. Not superiority complexes, ad homes attacks and circular thinking. I do not like debate, as I've said before and the above attacks reinforce that decision. If I wanted government classes I'd enroll back into college.

Goodnight and Laura, it was a great pleasure to spend time with you.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:48 pm

"So please. Stay fully on topic, restrained to what is happening here in the USA'

I didn't know this forum was solely about discussing the USA? Is this your rule? And I don't understand how I got off topic? I did not. FYI I posted on two different topics. That is why I reply 'piece meal' as to ensure there is no confusion what exact words I am addressing. Apparently you are greatly confused about my posts as I already answered your questions before addressing this last post. Maybe not in detail but you jumped to conclusions ( as Jae did) without having the evidence from my posts that justify your conclusions about my stances.


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:52 pm

My conclusion is that some are upset because I piece meal pick apart posts and when I do, your response looks very out of touch what I actually posted.

We have this culture of being out of touch with the remedies we do have to solve societies problems. All I did is bring attention to many overlooked hypocrisies and inaccuracies on BOTH sides of the isle!


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:57 pm

Personally, and this is my opinion, I am very tired of the stupidity of the Left which silences Milo Yannopolis at UC Berkely. Talk about anti fascists! NOT! Antifa will use violence as they say. This goes against all principles we are supposed to stand for.

And on the other side, I am sick and tired of people on the Right,  calling themselves Liberty advocates when they are not. Many on the Right abandon the principles of Liberty as soon as it fits their narrative.

I am also sick of the race baiting! Both in the media and our Govt.
We constantly hear its either 'all black people, 'all Mexican people, all white people etc.
Race is historically tied to socio economics and socio economics is the biggest factor in discrimination in this country. Yes minorities have higher percentages of poverty but poor people are still the largest group in numbers. These groups are divided and successfully conquered yet the LEFT keeps wanting to blame 'white men'. If I were a 'white man' I would be outraged. I don't blame 'men' for all the injustice done onto women either. Look at all the men of color that oppress women today throughout the world. This whole black this and white that argument is bogus as well. YES we absolutely have a history of white supremacy in THIS country but NOT all oppression is done by whites either. People are systemically oppressed based on different factors as to psychologically keep everybody in line. I had hoped Jae could have expanded on this issue. Because in the end it is psychology that is the most powerful weapon to oppress people but also to FREE people from oppression!

I feel an outsider to an increasingly divided nation that is refuses to grasp the simple concepts of the First Amendment or the rest of the Bill of Rights. I don't selectively pick and choose which right I like. I like the BOR in its entire form as it is a complete package to preserve the greatest form of INDIVIDUAL freedom. And Freedom does not mean you get to infringe upon someone else by using a gun and shoot them!
It is the People that continue to fail TO IMPLEMENT the document. NOT the other way around!

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:24 pm

I'm going to look at all the videos posted. Despite the anger of the exhales, it's more interesting than my posts about having a vasectomy.

Look, I think everyone can agree that the 2nd Amendment and ensuing case law from the SCOTUS is not going anywhere.

.1 percent however is a lot of lives and stories lost forever, and unimaginable heartbreak. And as much as I hate this, I can tell you from my line of work that there are forumulas used with a lot of different products, projects, vehicles etc. as to what an acceptable level of risk is based on the net benefit to society.

The lives lost is an astonishing and staggering number of people. It would be beneficial as a society if we could get to we answers.

I think race, mental health not being addressed in this county, a very estranged culture in the US all contribute.

I don't agree with the tone and spirit of some of the exchanges on here, but you all adults and that is none of my business.

I don't think I disagree with Maria's overall conclusions on gun control per se but I think more can and must be done to stop gun violence.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:25 pm

I do differ with Jae's choice of language regarding burning the constitution joke to fuck with Maria. It was not intended as a malicious thing but as a joke because we all know how passionate you are on the subject.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

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