General Discussion and Updates

Page 32 of 37 Previous  1 ... 17 ... 31, 32, 33 ... 37  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:39 am

Nice pictures, Dee.

Maria, do you agree that gun control needs to happen? You've been if I recall all over the world when you worked as a flight attendant. Do you think this sort of horendous and senseless gun violence reflects badly on American values in other countries.

Admin
Admin

Posts : 342
Join date : 2017-05-28
Location : Texas

View user profile http://forumforus.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Gorgeous photos and videos Dee and Laura. And a wonderful photo of your family Laura! I love your jacket btw Wink

Iceland looks cold. Brrb.

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:18 pm

James asked me to weigh in on gun control and the Second Amendment.

First and foremost, the UCLA Law center has a historical Second Amendment center which sheds light on many misconceptions today.

First, people in general today believe that the word 'regulated' in the Second Amendment has something to do with regulations. But it does not. It has to do with the proper functioning of the Militia and the firearms.

Secondly, people in general today believe that Individuals have no right to personal arms and that the Second Amendment is solely in context of a government Militia.
But this is false as well. Historically, every man between a certain age could join the Militia and they had to bring their own fire arm to join. The Militia did not provide the fire arms. Individuals did.

Thirdly, people in general today believe it stupid to think citizens can overthrow a government and that government has way more power to take citizens out but they forget that people who work for the government and sit in the government are just as much part of the so called Militia , the Second Amendment talks about.

Fourthly, the Second  Amendment is not about duck hunting. It is a check and balance measure against tyrannical federal government.

That being said, the Tenth Amendment clearly spells out that We the People have the right to create laws through the legislature. We absolutely have a right to legislate gun access and mental health for example.

As to come to current topics on guns. Semi-automatic weapons are weapons who have their fully automatic feature disabled.
Fully automatic weapons are already restricted to solely law enforcement and military. The Public has no access to those weapons legally and there is also a very strict vetting process in place in order to get one for those who do qualify.



As for the case of the Second Amendment as an outdated concept. To me personally, this is laughable at best. One look at the 20th century and the dictators who ran governments and killed millions. The institution of government has been the deadliest institution around with unchecked power. The Second Amendment is indeed a check and balance measure that gives every citizen the right today, to fight against tyranny.

The governments of Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot and the list goes on, all used weapons to mass kill their citizens!


As for gun violence today, according to the FBI's own website, gun related deaths are about 30.000 a year with a third caused by police and a third caused by criminals and another portion related to accidents.
That is 0.1% on a population of 316 million.Yet drunk driving deaths are about 80.000 deaths a year. Do we than ( then?) for the same token outlaw cars and alchohol?

Also, this shooting is tragic but these total death tolls take place almost daily if not weekly in Chicago, a heavily no gun zone!
Is it racist to make this shooting a tragedy and not what is happening in Chicago?

Last but not least, the NRA is a lobby. They don't care who buys the weapons. They are not defenders of civil liberties. If they could mass produce solely for Govt they would also!

I think this sums up my observations for both sides of the isle.

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:31 pm

As for violence abroad, it depends what we are talking about. Violence against women? In many parts of the world, women are defenseless in every possible way. In the US, they have a legal right to armed self defnese  against assault for example on top of a legal right to fight in court.

Unless you live in a country that takes violence against women seriously and head on ( very few countries) you are screwed in this world.

It all depends James. The media shapes perceptions that are so incredibly flawed and it goes in all directions, not just right or left.

What we see today is absolute irrationality coming from the left. They scream for 'gun elimination' but what if Trump ( who is indeed dictator material) calls for Martial Law tomorrow for some reason, are you going to be happy if we got rid of the Second Amendment and only government has weapons?

Just playing devils advocate here. People are so emotionally entrenched and vested in these topics without rationale. And this goes both directions of course!


Last edited by DutchessMaria on Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:42 pm

Come to think of it, I just watched a video on acid attacks in London. They had over 1800 reported acid attacks. On both men and women.




DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:23 pm

The hard truth is that NO militia is going to have a snowballs chance in hell of thwarting martial law if it happens. The weaponry the police and military have will easily quell any uprising quickly. There may be minor battles won but if our cheeto in seat wants it, there's nothing we the people can do about it.
avatar
Dee S

Posts : 220
Join date : 2017-05-28
Age : 52
Location : Norton Shores, MI

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:27 pm

But Dee, you are from the understanding that nobody in government is going to be part of the Militia when as a matter of fact , everybody is part of the Militia if they wish. Even the highest General in the Military!
I made this point up above as one of the myths that goes around which is this idea that it is Govt v the People when it is people IN govt that are part of We the People and can join the Militia as well!

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:30 pm



Posted for Maria. Her account was having technical issues.

laurav

Posts : 188
Join date : 2017-05-28
Age : 31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:48 pm

I have not had a chance to read everything, but read through latest rounds of comments.

I posted the below link just for some statistics. I am conflicted on the issue of gun control. I have a concealed weapon permit (CWP) and did so after a client with gang affiliations pulled a weapon in my office because he wanted discovery we were not comfortable giving him.

But I don't really know at the end of the day if it makes the world much safer, and I quit carrying when Zoe was born because the risk of child deaths from handguns far outweighs any personal protection--so assuming I had time to unlock my safe and then unlock the other ammo safe and chamber my weapon, I am not seeing much use for the guns.

That being said, it is not practically speaking a realistic argument in American politics to advocate against a constitutional Amendment.

I think there is a great scene in the movie
Ms. Sloane, where she goes off script (sort of) and questions the wisdom of the 2nd Amendment. Worth watching for that scene.

Handguns still kill more people than the weapons used in mass shootings, so if we are arguing against gun violence, advocating against hand guns would probably be the most rationale starting point.

At the same time, there is something to be said about the devastating psychological effect on the nation and world when these mass shootings occur. They show a kind of madness and depravity that tends to stun the population.

It would seem, correct, that these assault rifles (referring mainly to semi automatics which were used in sandy hook and Pulse for example) and bump stocks should be restricted more effectively? One, it is hard to see a good reason someone needs them. I have to agree I don't think I'd want to be around for a civil war with a bunch of dudes running around with assault rifles (again let's be realistic, how many women are going to run around with assault rifles).

As for rest of fairly complex comments and sub comments on gun control, I will try to comment with my own useless opinion later.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-41488081

laurav

Posts : 188
Join date : 2017-05-28
Age : 31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:59 pm

Part II

I don't believe that the argument that more vehicles accidents kill people than guns holds water.

1) a lot of CDC studies show an equivalency -- check out 2013 CDC report.

2) the federal government has used its ability to regulate the spending clause and commerce clause for states (purse strings) to put in near universal vehicle laws across states (child car seats, drinking age, blood alcohol levels, speed limits ( this latter had a complicated history repealed under Clinton admin after Republicans took Congress). Undoubtably, the ability to drive a car is tightly regulated.

States, of course, regulate this even more. How many people, and I know there are plenty of fools, can reasonably argue they should not have to put their infant in a car seat because it infringes on their
Liberty interest and rights?

But yet if a state enacts a law banning hand guns for example, and requiring shot guns are dissambeled and unloaded when at home, it unlawfully infringes on the 2nd amendment according to the Supreme Court (and this applies to all states through the 14th amendment). So the result is a series of state CAP laws that only penalize adults who negligently allow a child to gain access to firearms (and sometimes the child has to actually use the gun). Notably, this means harm must occur for liability to attach.

A gun is the only consumer product that has no minimum safety standards. Car seats no matter price or quality have minimum safety standards, as do medicine bottles, household cleaning chemicals...

Also, our economy depends on vehicles to function (like it or not). We are not dependent on carrying our guns to function.

But the problem like I said earlier is that it is an unsuccessful argument to criticize the 2nd amendment.

Like I said, I am conflicted on gun control, and not sure how realistic most plans are anyway.

But it can be frustrating to see the Constitutiom treated like a religious, literal text when the history of Supreme Court rulings have varied tremendously in approach to interpretation (originalism for example versus pragmatism).

My entire world view as a scientist and as a thinker believes the pragmatist view point is a better way of looking at the constitution and interpreting the text in a way that most applies the principles of the constitution versus the historical baggage it came with. That is crude but simplest way of putting it. Justice Breyer is who I would aspire to be like if deciding isssues of constitutional law versus Scalia.

To that end, I believe the Heller case (to which I believe you reference indirectly, Maria) was wrongly decided, and I disagree with the majority opinion and would join the disssenting opinion of Breyer, Ginsburg, Souter etc.

Of course, we have the problem as James referenced of competing Supreme Court judges deciding what the constitution means.

To me this points to the inherent meaninglessness of any absolute principle because it is always subject to competing interpretation by brilliant and reasonable minds.

I am not sure where I fall on this now, but I used to generally adhere to the notion that the more disciplined a person was in applying objective data gathered through the scientific method, the closer to making an accurate truth claim he or she would be (hence, why I found the question of god to be a scientific one at root).

Problematically the jury is still out, no pun intended, on whether I think such criteria could successfully apply to a legal system. If this idea was both accurate in theory and application, the judge and lawmakers who rely on the most objective data and are the most free from bias (if even possible), would arrive at the most accurate interpretation of the constitution and most closely approximately the concept of justice.

There are numerous flaws with that theory from beginning to end however, including how you craft laws and rights to begin with. So I tend to go back to its all random chaos and a sh** show.

laurav

Posts : 188
Join date : 2017-05-28
Age : 31

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:13 am

Is that what I think? I didn't think I thought that but since you know my thoughts.... nope, still not what I thought.

not worth even explaining
avatar
Dee S

Posts : 220
Join date : 2017-05-28
Age : 52
Location : Norton Shores, MI

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:24 am

the real question is, do you want weapons solely in the hands of Government, police and criminals?

In the end, we cannot be surprised about the gun violence we see today. We are daily bombarded with violent messages and films which are glamorized. Rambo comes to mind. We have an inherently violent Government. We see daily police brutality.


On a side note, Laura, you said you had not heard about violence etc in Europe. I have been following very closely what has been happening over there and it is chilling in all directions. Extremism is on the rise everywhere and on all sides. Antisemitism is on the rise, Islamophobia, Islamofacsism and Right wing extremism are all on the rise. There are parallel worlds that are created where asylum seekers suddenly find themselves trapped with no way out because governments that were welcoming at first, have closed their borders because infrastructure can't handle the enormous influx of immigrants which in return has caused tremendous anxiety with local populations. Let me see if I can post some of those vids. Also in countries like Italy and Greece, illegal immigrants run over the police and nobody can do anything to stop the flow.


DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Jae on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:24 am

I believe we already had this conversation and we were already clear on the viewpoints and arguments...but I guess we can rehash it

30,000 gun related deaths in the US is far too many, we're not trying to compare apples and oranges with alcohol related car accidents to minimize the impact of gun violence. 30,000 people in the US, and yet in a country that has heavily restricted guns like the UK, there are only 50-60 gun related deaths per year. And out of all of those 30,000 deaths per year, not one, in over 200 years was the result of a militia taking up arms against the government. In spite of the few dictators that clearly give you nightmares, there are many more countries in the world that have heavily restricted firearms or banned them altogether without incident of despots coming into power. Has it happened? Yes. Will it happen again? Maybe. Will a militia stop it. Hell no. What revolution in modern day history has ever been successful in first world countries with first rate militaries? Would a militia have been able to cripple the third reich? And BTW shouldn't that system of checks and balances you love so much prevent such an occurrence in the US?

You continue to argue for the second amendment under some fantasy that someday a militia will take place. You foolishly believe that a militia would hold it's ground against the already well established US government and military; this is not guerrilla warfare with bayonets and cannon balls in forests and meadows like the american revolution. Times, weapons, environment, technology, power has changed. No government ranking official is going to leave their 6-7 figure job to be charged with treason and fight a losing battle. Do you think the generals in the military will deviate from their training, risk imprisonment to fight with nothing but some private handheld guns (because they can't take the tanks with them, y'know).

To maintain an outdated law that is contributing to the mass murders of innocent people all over the US because of some baseless fantasy of a revolution that will never come is folly. So many countries have outlawed guns and have never had to fight against some dictatorship in their nations

I don't think people need guns, I wish they were completely abolished, but I don't believe we will ever fully outlaw them. But this system of checks and balances is failing us when we can't even use the 10th amendment to implement gun control laws because our congress and our white house is controlled by one party that has been bought over and over.

Jae

Posts : 103
Join date : 2017-05-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:37 am

James, you sent me an email to pitch in.

No further words are needed!
Watch this documentary and the reminder that new generations need about history. My grandmother vividly lived through WWII and saved all these WWII documents to tell us it really happened.


DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:38 am

FAIR USE 2003 Documentary showing that "gun control" has historically been used to disarm citizens and make them helpless before governments commit genocide. Dramatically covers major genocides in the Soviet Union, Germany, Uganda, Rwanda, China, Turkey, and other countries. The documentary shows how "gun control" in the U.S. has been used to victimize blacks, Indians, children, women, and others. Combines gut-level emotional appeal and fast-paced, powerful graphics with a cool statement of historic facts and quotes from the relevant laws. Written by Claire Wolfe





DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:54 am

"But this system of checks and balances is failing us when we can't even use the 10th amendment to implement gun control laws"

This is inaccurate. We do have gun control laws!

Ownership of fully automatic AK rifles is tightly regulated by the National Firearms Act (NFA). The Gun Control Act ceased importing of foreign-manufactured fully automatic firearms for civilian sales and possession.

In 1986, an amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act stopped all future domestic sales of fully automatic weapons for civilian use (non-military/non-LEO). Fully automatic weapons are still manufactured in the US for military and law enforcement use. However, automatic firearms manufactured domestically prior to 1986 or imported prior to 1968 may be transferred between civilians in accordance with federal and state law.

Semi-Automatic AK-47s, however, are legal and easily obtainable in most states of the United States. Certain states like California have specific restrictions which effectively ban new purchases of semi-automatic rifles like the AK-47.

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:57 am

"and yet in a country that has heavily restricted guns like the UK, there are only 50-60 gun related deaths per year."

But there are 1800 Acid incidents a year in the UK and London alone!


DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:02 am

" In spite of the few dictators that clearly give you nightmares"

Go tell that to the survivors of everybody in the documentary I posted.  I am referring to history and if you want to see history in the making, you better do your homework because Europe is ready to explode and we see extremism drastically on the rise.


Last edited by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:47 am; edited 2 times in total

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:05 am

"You foolishly believe"

I think Jae, you are rude, incredibly rude! Intolerant of any other point of view yet you are naive. Mankind is at the top of the food chain for a reason.
Is this how you behave as a therapist?

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Jae on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:43 am

Gun control laws that allow private sales without background checks, that allow suspected terrorists to legally purchase firearms, that allow mentally ill individuals access to firearms, that allow mass purchases of bullets and guns, that allow legal semi-automatic firearms to be adjusted into illegal automatic firearms with legal parts and purchases from the internet sounds like a pathetic excuse for gun control. Common sense laws are failing us.

Acid attacks are apples and oranges with gun laws. Stay on topic.

The dictators you posted all rose to power under very specific circumstances in countries that don't have the perfection of checks and balances.

Maria have you ever noticed how when someone disagrees with you, you become an absolutionist and start slinging ad homs left and right? How does my disagreeing with you mean I disagree with all viewpoints? I don't necessarily disagree with other points of view, I disagree specifically with yours. And how does calling your viewpoint about militias foolish have anything to do with my profession in the mental health field? You always try to go for the jugular with some petty attack. You've done this for years, try to find another tactic. Lecturing, talking down to people, and insulting them doesn't work.

Jae

Posts : 103
Join date : 2017-05-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:50 am

The hostility is stunning!

Now to get back on topic. I never said I am against gun control. Long time ago ( on this thread) you assumed yet I never even brought it up. Had you actually read my post above, I again reiterated our right to legislate guns!


DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:51 am

"Acid attacks are apples and oranges with gun laws. Stay on topic"

Says who? You?

I beg to differ! People walk around with scarred faces for the rest of their lives! Just like people get killed because of drunk drivers! Same pain!

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:53 am

"The dictators you posted all rose to power under very specific circumstances in countries that don't have the perfection of checks and balances"

Ahh that perfection of checks and balances!

Well, it got rid of slavery, segregation, voting inequality, gender inequality, it advocated on behalf of safe abortions, gay marriage, disability rights and the list goes on!

And those dictators I posted about? They all started out like Trump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Jae on Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:00 am

Glad you picked up on the hostility, I was worried it would get lost in the absence of tone and facial expression the internet shrouds our interpersonal exchanges in.

I never said you were against gun control, I said you were for the second amendment, which is just as foolish to me.

Those very checks and balances allowed for those social injustices to take place to begin with. Safe abortions are in danger, gay marriage was not the result of checks and balances, and all of these things were made possible by advocates who fought the system not the system itself.

And if it is so perfect, then why are you worried about militias to stop dictators? We should be okay right? The three branches of government should prevent this from happening...

Jae

Posts : 103
Join date : 2017-05-29

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by DutchessMaria on Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:12 am

"I never said you were against gun control, I said you were for the second amendment, which is just as foolish to me."

The real fool is the one who does not grasps the profound importance of the Bill of Rights and does not understand those rights do not come from Government but exist merely because you exist as a human being!



"Those very checks and balances allowed for those social injustices to take place to begin with'

You are conflating  the US Constitution with the Govt again! One is a set of principles,the other is to uphold and protect it but unfortunately has been the biggest violator of the Rule of Law itself.



"Safe abortions are in danger,"

You are making my case. There are always humans lurking to violate the rights of others!



"gay marriage was not the result of checks and balances, and all of these things were made possible by advocates who fought the system not the system itself"

The Supreme Court IS yet another check and balance measure in our Constitutional scheme if you like it or not, YES they voted in favor of gay marriage!



"And if it is so perfect"

I was being facetious since you wanted to get rid of the US Constitution in the past.



"why are you worried about militias to stop dictators?'

I am not worried about militias. you are! I merely STATED the PURPOSE of the Second Amendment. NOT my opinion! It is constitutional fact!

I hope this clarifies how confused you are about my statements!

DutchessMaria

Posts : 177
Join date : 2017-06-12

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 32 of 37 Previous  1 ... 17 ... 31, 32, 33 ... 37  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum