General Discussion and Updates

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:01 pm

Jae wrote:Do I think this policy would prevent people from seeking treatment, no, do I think it would prevent people from disclosing this treatment, absolutely. I wonder how much background check the bar can actually conduct when D&A treatment is protected by private health information laws?

They actually make you sign a series of notarized forms and releases to allow them carte blanche access. That being said, my rehab did resist even with the releases, and then that became another circus (because of course it would be too easy if the bar simply allowed me to get the records and mail them in). If I had not disclosed, I think they would have found out anyway because they normally contact family and friends. Plus, I by no means try to occupy a moral high ground, but it would have been perjury to the Fl Supreme Court if I had lied, which could give rise to criminal prosecution and would probably ensure I never got barred in any state since perjury is sort of the unforgivable sin for lawyers.

I agree that some disclosure is necessary, and I don't even resent being on probation for a while. That part made sense. What I resented was the length of time that I've been under probation (until May 10, 2019) as excessive, as as well as the amount of hoops that you have to jump through. Having opened my firm and then having Zoe as a newborn, made it really difficult to comply with the various financial stipulations and weekly meetings that are required. Plus, on a more  arrogant level, it irked me that at these meetings I was required to attend, I was there with these 50 year old attorneys who had done hard core criminal stuff.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:02 pm

Omg, I get another gold thingie.  I took us to page 4!

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:05 pm

Dee S wrote:
Admin wrote:Laura did this as a joke. I have to figure out how she did it.
If it helps, I don't see any ads. I use AdBlockPlus. Very Happy Removes all ads and can be used on all browsers (not sure about Edge).

That's a great idea. I was actually working on ensuring that we cannot be found by any SEO or unwanted guests, and I started changing the "skin" of the Forum (I admit I did the Wiccan thing as a joke). Just so everyone knows, other members on forums here cannot find us, and it would be virtually impossible through any kind of search engine. Therefore, our privacy should be ensured. Only someone with an actual link here can find us.

There is an occasional "guest" on here, but that is just google bots crawling, but again the terms I have used for our SEO will keep the public from finding us.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:07 pm

Anyone have an opinion on the Comey testimony? I, for the first time, came away with a much more favorable impression of him, especially as concerns Clinton email decisions.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:10 pm

laurav wrote:Anyone have an opinion on the Comey testimony? I, for the first time, came away with a much more favorable impression of him, especially as concerns Clinton email decisions.

I think he kicked asses and am awaiting the repercussions for 45 from his testimony. He was smart to write an accounting shortly after each meeting and I think those will be an undoing for the administration and any charges that may have been coming his way. He is a man of integrity. That is clear. His firing, IMO, was unjust.


For your getting us to page 4 sunny bounce cheers

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:02 pm

Laura--you're around early today...as for the Wiccan, it's a good thing you are removing us from the SEO or we'd have a bunch of lunatics on this forum, lol.

I have to say, it sounds like Florida just has real issues. I suppose Texas is the same, but it seems a southern ideology where stigmatizing "the other" is necessary for society to function.

I am also assuming the bar is gaining something financially or politically from all this.  However, Laura, did you see this?

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/225441-florida-bar-application-discriminatory

or this? http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/report_doj_is_investigating_mental_health_screening_of_bar_applicants_by_fl

Dee, I guess I am confused as to the breadth and applicability of the ADA. For example, if someone gets drunk at work, are they protected by the ADA?

Can a blind student become a doctor under the ADA? Both from a licensing perspective and in terms of getting into medical school?

I followed Trump's press conference this afternoon. It is and always will be surreal to believe this clown -- a literal reality TV show persona -- is the president of one of the most powerful democrracies on earth.

I have no idea what is going on with the UK. They, the people, seem to be sending an unclear message to the powers that be. I think the bombings were what took May out, and I think her refusal to create more distance from Trump.

I think Merkel is the voice of reason in Europe right now. The Dutch also sent a strong message during their last election along with the French. But the question is whether their leadership can stay the course, especially in light of the waves of refugees hitting Europe and the terrorism still popping up there.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:06 pm

ADA is the Americans with Disabilities Act. No, getting drunk at work is plain old stupid and foolish. Where's the disability? Abusing alcohol isn't considered disabling - side effects of alcoholism might but not alcoholism itself. Do you know a blind student trying to become a Dr?

REASONABLE accommodation is the criterion, to my understanding. I'm not the attorney in the bunch though. Wink

I'm not really worrying about anything on the other side of the pond. What's going on here is troubling enough with a 2 yr old spoiled brat in the captain's chair. Yes, I'm interested but not really following it much.

So yesterday was a lot of fun and all .. but I seem to have cooked my forehead and chesticles in the sun. The itch and pain are just awesome ::sarcasm:: And it appears some insect decided to leave me two nice bites on my fingers near the shingles breakout. UGH... itch itch itch .. hits the benadryl again.

Nap time!

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:55 pm

I guess I am just wondering where/ what the limitations are as the whole bar admissions process peaked my interest. If drug and alcoholism becomes disabilities, than it would suggest discrimination is prohibited but from just plain common sense and experience it is obvious there have to be parameters. But there's not a lot of clarification on it online.

I am used to vetting for security clearances, but that's more to ensure the person is trustworthy and not vulnerable to extortion or outside influences.

I think you're insulting 2 year olds everywhere. They are far more emotionally developed than that idiot.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:47 pm

The last few weeks have been kind of long, and my brain is fried. But here goes, James, since you seem really fixated, lol:

I did take disability law in law school, and did some practice in it with the EEOC when I worked for CAIR, but honestly it's been a while, and even more importantly, academic theory rarely translates well to the reality of how it plays out. Disability law generally covers a wide range of federal, state and often even county/city regulations and laws, and encompasses FHA, IDEA, Rehab Act, CRIPA and others.

Part of the confusion with the ADA is that 1) it took more than a few versions for them to arrive at the current one we have because of some bizarre supreme court holdings, 2) It is divided into multiple titles (I-III probably being most relevant here), 3) some of the landmark case law stems from different SCOTUS make ups, which from what we studied back in the day, made for a tough time reconciling some of the holdings.

Dee you've been referring to Title III, reasonable accommodation for access in public settings, and James is jumping back and forth between Title I and Title II I think. But again, I am out of my depth here.

I do remember because it was drilled so much that a disability for purposes of the ADA is a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities or a record of such impairment or being perceived as having such impairment.

For purposes of drug/alcohol issues, generally it is having a record of such impairment or the stigma with it being perceived as an impairment, especially in the case of recovery. The protection for those dealing with substance abuse hinges more on the discrimination based on status more than anything else. I would certainly argue against the idea that I have a disability frankly but if something that happened six years ago is construed by others as being one, then ADA could kick in.

Reasonable accommodation kicks in along with the second prong, which is can the employee perform the essential functions of the job. So until scientific advancements improve, Courts are likely not going to rule that there is a reasonable accommodation for a blind surgeon or that he/she can perform the essential functions of the job. A lot of alcoholics who are active in addiction would have the same issue since being drunk at most jobs would mean you cannot perform essential functions. Whereas, discriminating on basis of status including preventing time off for treatment, could become a valid action, especially if employer perceives it as an impairment/disability.

I think the issue with medical school could get more complicated or any sort of academic institution which would arise under Title II because I suppose the argument would be that it is not for the med school to determine whether or not the student can perform the essential functions of the future job, but instead hinge on reasonable accommodations in context of the academics. Again with med school, even that seems a stretch because of clinicals and so forth.

I know the Bar examiners have also had a lot of flack/litigation over not giving reasonable accommodations for people with physical disabilities on the bar exam--which is a whole different can of worms because again the problem becomes what a reasonable accommodation is in light of the rigorous expectations of the exam.

I knew a kid in law school who had accommodations for testing for law school exams and was given double time and a separate room, but for the bar exam, the reasonable accommodation was considerably less than double time, so he never passed the bar, which of course sort of makes the argument for the law school having to legally give the double time on the exams start to seem silly.

But we're also talking about pretty absurd scenarios here versus the more day to day realities--for example, the kid in high school who gets extra recess time because he as ADHD would be a more realistic example of reasonable accommodation versus medical school and law school hypos, lol.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:47 pm

Okay, so if you google it, there are blind doctors out there, so I stand corrected.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:06 am

Admin wrote:Laura--you're around early today...as for the Wiccan, it's a good thing you are removing us from the SEO or we'd have a bunch of lunatics on this forum, lol.

I have to say, it sounds like Florida just has real issues. I suppose Texas is the same, but it seems a southern ideology where stigmatizing "the other" is necessary for society to function.

I am also assuming the bar is gaining something financially or politically from all this.  However, Laura, did you see this?

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/225441-florida-bar-application-discriminatory

or this? http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/report_doj_is_investigating_mental_health_screening_of_bar_applicants_by_fl


Yeah, actually I received a notice a year or so ago that the DOJ requested my file. But I am assuming that is dead in the waters with Sessions in charge. Also, a few people have sued in federal district court, and the bar always settles for a non-disclosed settlement if it survives the MTD stage. But not really worth it for me at this point. I am sure the Trump admin really cares a lot about the ADA....NOT.

I wanted to get back to some of the posts on Europe and Syria, but I'll probably do that in the manana.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:46 am

Okay so that does help. It is status based as well as actual disability.

You get a gold something cheers

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:03 am

Any argument over application of the ADA sounds like it automatically gets into litigation over the meaning of any of those terms. Which of course leads to nine years of arguments over something.

I don't see American society as extremely pro or against acceptance of people with differences. We seem fairly lodged in the middle compared to other nations. What I would I guess think is most relevant in American society is the concept of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Don't acknowledge something as a disability."

I can only imagine on public accommodation what that is like. How does someone even get around in a major city's subway, for example?

I am assuming if Congress passed the ADA, it was a bipartisan issue. WAIT BIPARTISAN LEGISLATION EXISTED ONCE? SURELY WE JEST. So it is another sad example of what will not happen under the new administration since both sides of the aisle in my mind are like two people going through a very bad divorce.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:06 am

I guess my interest in Europe stems from a fear that populism will take over Western democracies and make it easier for Russia and China to come to power.

I think Putin absolutely dreams if more power even though his people are afraid to dissent, and that tampering with the western democracies is a way of leading to more internal chaos.

At a certain point, Russia and China will become superpowers and we'll have no NATO and no United States.

I think the UK does not really know what they want which is the same issue in a lot of these Europe countries.  Populism is an easy pill to swallow but it cannot do much to offer real economic solutions in a world that is changing overnight.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:08 am

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing what everyone else thinks.

I also meant to ask if the Southern states are de facto more likely to be discriminatory under the ADA or anything else?

Hope everyone is having a good weekend. I made the mistake of watching Manchester by the Sea last night.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:54 pm

I admit I had to look it up:
pop·u·lism
ˈpäpyəˌlizəm/Submit
noun
support for the concerns of ordinary people.
"it is clear that your populism identifies with the folks on the bottom of the ladder"
the quality of appealing to or being aimed at ordinary people.
"art museums did not gain bigger audiences through a new populism"

I would hope that, if anything, this experience with 45 would make us, as a nation, more aware of the common man and our needs. The wealthy have controlled the systems for way too long. Wouldn't it be better? Perhaps I'm an idealist and have too much faith in mankind's inherent goodness overcoming the greed that seems to be driving the world today. Humanity isn't very humane right now.

Why do you feel it offers little economic solutions? Don't you think the everyday person is capable of making good policy? We learn how to ride the system for our betterment. We make constant economic choices, why couldn't we develop policy that helped everyone? Perhaps I'm just not awake enough yet to understand.

Laura, thanks for diving in with the information on ADA. You are very knowledgeable and experienced. I only know how it affected me, and that was in a reactionary situation not educational. I do see now how addictions, and the treatment of them, would fall under it. Having had addictions myself (and battling them is an ongoing issue), I too never felt it was disabling. More of my escape from reality. It never impaired my ability to work, or if it did, it wasn't to a degree I'd consider disabling.

I did work in a manufacturing plant while in a wheelchair (recovering from a broken ankle). It was interesting. The former owner of the plant was wheelchair bound so the entire place was fully accessible to me. Except for the heavy doors, there were no barriers at all. I did get yelled at occasionally for wheeling too quickly through the press and welding areas. But the guys always gave me a rashon of shit in a playful way. It's ironic that that's the place where my health issues became disabling.

I ran into one of my former co-workers last summer. He told me the company had been taken over by the parent company and the GM for whom I worked was convicted of embezzlement. I looked him up in the prisoner database. He's not there. Either he got off on a technicality or he's doing federal time. I'd bet it was the latter. After the way he treated me, I hope it was. There are not many people in this world that I'd wish ill on, he's one.

James, why do you ask if the southern states would be more likely to be discriminatory under the ADA? Racism and disability are two different things.

I don't feel you are being treated fairly Laura. That is a constant punishment for something that not only have you already done your "time" for but you've rectified the addiction with major life changes and stability. Do you have any recourse for a re-negotiation of your compliance options (for lack of a better term)? Even the most heinous of criminals gets parole, or an attempt at it. Even they get appeals.

I'm not oblivious nor think we should stay fully out of the affairs of other countries. I am a humanitarian and feel we should help with the displaced, and that includes bringing refugees here, if they so desire. The likelihood of a terrorist coming among refugees is so low it's laughable. Sure, there are bad among every group but in the history of the refugee program I think only a handful have turned to crime. The vetting is just THAT intensive. It's much more detailed than the immigration system and that is just a horror to navigate.

We had a bit of bad news come in the mail yesterday. It appears my bf's ex-wife is playing dirty pool. She contacted Friend of the Court and demanded the back child support from Chromie and as a result, they've suspended his license. No notice. No notifications. No attempt at contacting him. Just cut it off. He is my only transportation other than the bus. We rely on his ability to drive to get groceries and to appointments. The whole purpose of spending so much money of this frigging trailer (that is STILL not finished) was so we could GO places. And of course the notice arrived on a Friday when we can do fuckall about it.

The frustration is here ... his youngest was the son who died. He would be 33. The child support should have been expunged when Daniel turned 18 but my wonderful boyfriend, who puts everything off until it becomes a major battle, never bothered having it removed. So now, not only is he paying a penalty, but it's a domino effect. So I'm livid. He knew he owed back child support and he knew they suspend licenses for that debt. <that whole reasoning has always baffled me! How can one earn money when they can't drive to / from their job OR if their job involves driving. It's asinine!> The people who wrote that law didn't live in reality IMO.

ANOTHER beautiful weekend and I'm trapped in this house. I went out the other day on the bus and am paying the piper. Every joint aches and I got a nice dose of light sunburn. My joints are just too frail to handle the jostling and bumps of the bus. Not to mention the roads of our city being pothole central. They recently repaved the road in front of the Heights bus station so I'm hoping they'll get to the other roads soon. I life just outside the Heights limits so what happens there is something that effects us.

Buses only run until 5 on Saturday and not at all on Sunday. So joy! If I don't wheel there, I'm stuck home. I really thought the prison doors had been opened.

James, your position sounds like one that has a lot of interesting facets to it. I started out headed to accounting when I was in HS and my AA is in business with accounting as my major. Then I realized how much of a shell game it was to be an accountant and I just couldn't do it. Then I found out that all business is just a bunch of shell games. Those who play it dirtiest become executives. I know there are good people and ethical companies out there. Sadly they appear to be the minority.

The nationwide protest or trump support rally or anti-islam rally or whateverthefuck they called it was supposed to happen today. Did any of you go? I had hoped to go to the one in Lansing but that obviously didn't happen. I haven't perused the news yet. What are your feelings on these rallies? Have you attended any at all?

I don't feel a sitting president should be wasting his time on rallies. This guy is an egomaniac. My visceral reaction to his visage stands and one of disgust and nausea. Do we really think there's any chance of him being impeached? If so, what will that mean? President Pence? Ryan? Are we any better off if that happens? No matter how/if he's removed, will it be any better with any of the other zealots that are in line? He's the devil we know....

OK off to dive into Facebook. I've been running my swagbucks since I got up. It's a nice $25 - 50 a month extra and makes me feel like I'm actually doing something with my time.

I'll check in .. hope you're all having a great weekend!


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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by laurav on Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:13 pm

Manchester by the Sea is fairly depressing. I made the mistake of putting this show called the Keepers on last night, which started out with geriatric detectives and seemed pretty low key. By episode 2, it got into super graphic narratives by victims of Catholic Priests. I had to turn it off because it was so disturbing.

The Muslim protests today in light of the travesties committed by the Catholic Church are very amusing. Catholicism has to be the most evil religion in the world, and the way it has used religion as rationales for perpetuating horrific abuse upon the world is staggering.

Dee, I do a lot of child support stuff although I am not licensed in Michigan and cannot advise. If you want to send me what he got, I can take a look in non-legal capacity. At least in FL and NY, there is a notice requirement and a window of time (ten days) to request a review. Normally, even very modest payments may be sufficient to prevent suspension or get reinstatement.

Sorry that you are missing out on a beautiful weekend up there. It has not been one here. Torrential downpour all day. I took Zoe to Chuck E Cheese, where we did the same ride about twenty times in a row. She's playing doctor now that we're home, lol.





Hope everyone has a good rest of the weekend. I still want to post about Merkel and Syria, but saw Dee's post about child support and wanted to pop in.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Dee S on Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:46 pm

laurav wrote:
Dee, I do a lot of child support stuff although I am not licensed in Michigan and cannot advise. If you want to send me what he got, I can take a look in non-legal capacity. At least in FL and NY, there is a notice requirement and a window of time (ten days) to request a review. Normally, even very modest payments may be sufficient to prevent suspension or get reinstatement.

TY luv. It was simply a notice from the Secretary of State. Not from the FOC. FOC in Muskegon County is known for it's underhandedness. I dealt with FL with my sons' father. On James' 18th birthday Edwin was at the court house getting his support order revoked and his past due payments expunged. He owed me over $25,000. POOF!

Zoe is adorable!! I miss little ones. My daughter and her husband have baby fever very badly. Even their nieces and nephews are asking where the babies are. LOL I truly hope they stick to their plan though. Their living situation isn't ideal and surely not for adding another human. Shane isn't hired in yet at Herman Miller, he's still a temp. I am hearing once that happens, house will happen, then baby. Very Happy At least I can get to them and they will come to me.

OK I sent a photo of the letter.

I've never seen Manchester by the Sea. Guess it's one I shouldn't watch. LOL

The anti-Sharia protests are aggravating. As a recovering Catholic, I agree with you on that too. Protecting pedophiles is horrendous. I say that having a man in my life with a conviction/prison time for inappropriate contact with a child.. csc. MI's application of the sex offender registry is everything from peeing in public to horrendous abuses. I have reconciled his past as a one off issue that he had with his ex-step-daughter. They had a hate filled relationship and she was always attempting to get him into inappropriate situations, and mom allowed it. He had HORRIBLE counsel who advised him to take a plea, he did 5 years and will be on the registry for another 3-5. It is what it is. He's nothing but gentle and kind to me and everyone he meets. Even his 1st ex who's loony tunes to the nth degree.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:04 pm

Laura, Zoe is so very adorable. It reminds me of when Andrea was that little. Zoe seems like she's precocious. I can tell she's very intelligent by the sparkle in her eyes, especially when she was reading that book with so much intonation. Do you have a tat on your arm btw?

Seeing the little ones in Laura and Jae's lives really make me sad on some level. I really wanted more kids. But it's not a decision I can unilaterally make. A lot happened after the Forum closed. After we moved back to Texas, things did not really improve. 2013 through 2015 was a dark period.

Yikes Dee that sounds bad with the child support. Hopefully Laura can help you out. How can they suspend it if it has been owed for so long? How long does it take to get it back?

I keep seeing the Keepers in my Netflix feed. The Who Killed Sister Cathy? show.

I think that's always been a big beef for me that religion can be twisted around to hide and conceal inhumane and regressive policies. I don't think the Catholic church has ever truly come to terms with its dark underbelly. How many people have probably been sexually abused in the Catholic Church? Yet they still get a pass and get to claim to have a leader who is god's ordained authority in earth. Doctrine of papal infallibility should be more disturbing than any teachings in Islam as far as I can see.

Populism is basically nationalism and a lot of times its hyped up rhetoric hinged on demigods and explosive viewpoints. Hatred of minorities or subgroups of the population is pretty common. In Europe and the US, it is the anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim rhetoric that fuels the flames. I think Trump may have inadvertently helped Europe turn on populism because his mannerisms and rhetoric was so distasteful to Europeans.

I don't think Europeans are any less bigoted though. I think the Brits try to make their racist viewpoints more palatable, but it is all the same thing.

And none of this really has anything to do with the economy. None of Trump's ideas or the European populism has much benefit for improving people's  living conditions.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:06 pm

https://qz.com/938736/dutch-election-results-and-xenophobia-dont-be-relieved-by-the-dutch-election-its-done-nothing-to-stop-populism-in-europe/

Here's a good link on populism in Europe right now based on Dutch elections back in March.

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:26 am

So everyone, I was wondering something and am totally open to feedback or this being nixed.

But it occurred to me that if the survival of our Forum is a goal, and maybe why it crashed last time, is that we need to periodically diversify membership. After all, for example, cults that die out are almost always because of a failure to convert.

With only the four of us, I think it can be hard on everyone to have the burden of posting or watching the Forum grow quiet, which is what happened last time I believe.

We can always boot someone out if they turn out to be a bad fit, and we don't feel closeness to them? I was thinking in light of the Pulse anniversary as well as just to add some interesting viewpoints that we could consider bringing in someone from the LGBT community. Maybe someone who identifies as transgender and is very abreast of current political and social topics?

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Jae on Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:15 pm

Admin wrote: I was thinking in light of the Pulse anniversary as well as just to add some interesting viewpoints that we could consider bringing in someone from the LGBT community.

Cuz I'm not doing a good enough job?

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:58 pm

If you'd only liked Sense8..... Smile

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Jae on Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:49 pm

Well I still watch Orange is the New Black so there...

I am open to new members and adding another person from the LGBT community, but it would be nice to have it acknowledged that one is already here

Not sure how I feel about booting people out though, seems a little harsh

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Re: General Discussion and Updates

Post by Admin on Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:05 pm

I am sorry, Jae. What I meant to say was in terms of adding additional people with a cross section of viewpoints, I thought maybe we should start with someone from LGBT--I was really thinking transgender. Also I was not meaning that you were not a representative of the LGBT. I meant if we are going to add new people, maybe we should start with LGBT, and in my mind there was a clear distinction between who we already have and the diversity we represent as a current group and bringing new people on board.

By booting out, I just meant if we had someone who turned out to be insane and was damaging the group or something like that.

Do you have any people you know who might want to join?

I hope we're cool and I do apologize for not being clear.

Admin
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Re: General Discussion and Updates

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